Travelbuddy going from Jayapura to Port Moresby without plane.

Hey guys

I mostly hitchhiked from Switzerland to Timor- Leste. I have a ferry the next days to Jayapure.
Then I would like to cross the island to moresby without using any planes.
I gonna use a combination of hitchhiking, boat hitchhiking, hiking etc from Vanimo to Madang to Lae or so. The hot part is going to be to walk over the mountains to Port Moresby... I guess.

It's going to be around the 15.7.-15.8.2011 or longer. Around the 7.7.2011 I'm going to be in Jayapura to organise the papers (If I'm lucky...)

It's going to be amazing, great, unique, endless. Its not gonna be holiday, easy, for free, safe, comfort....... hope you understand what I mean.

If you are interessted to join, please contact me by message me on LP or sent me a comment on my Blog.
about my travellings on www.cymytrip.ch.vu

Boat hitchiking? Good luck...

Well on rivers I have experience... On the mekong it was possible. often for free. do you have concret experence or do you just write something?

If you also bothered to read and not just write, you wouldn't ask such a silly Q.

crunch12321, the Russian hitchhiking guru and travel guide author Anton Krotov was recently in the area and found getting even paid transportation on boats was difficult. His conclusion was that planes are inevitable. You can read exhaustive documentation of his experiences on his blog.

Hehe, take it easy laszlo. I don't google every guy answering me. I have to pay for every hour here... ;-D I cheched your page (the east- indonesian one.) Its a really nice one. Lots of infos and pictures and surely a huge work for it. respect. Perhaps everything about VISA and crossing boarders should have a date, so I know when you did make it the last time... (But details...)

But I didn't found the place you hitchhiked Papuas rivers...

And I have to ask this silly questions cos the PM answers show me often, people who never did it, tell me how impossible things are...

@ Christopher. Thanx for the link. I think this are the infos I need. Do you know if I can get this information in english or if there are concret pictures. My russian is somewhere between strastswitzwe and odin. ;-D

Edited by: crunch12321

getting even paid transportation on boats was difficult.

Exactly.
Even that requires luck, and then freeloading would require even more.
Not to mention it would be puzzling all the locals who pay for their rides why a tourist who is definitely far wealthier than any of them (as wealthy Papuans go by air) wouldn't want to pay as they all do.

Having said that, I did get right through PNG without flying twice.
But I did pay for boat-rides and PMV rides just like everyone else.

"...then freeloading would require even more. Not to mention it would be puzzling all the locals who pay for their rides why a tourist who is definitely far wealthier than any of them (as wealthy Papuans go by air) wouldn't want to pay as they all do."

Come off of it, Laszlo. I've found throughout the Third World, locals understand hitchhiking just fine. That was certainly Anton's experience overland in Papua. Only the boats were a hassle.

And when Krotov travels, he usually gives lectures on Free Travel at cultural centres and encourages locals to give it a try. It's not something that is meant to be just for Western tourists, but for anyone with two legs. (I participated in one of Krotov's expeditions in the Middle East. It was heartwarming to see some Syrians and Egyptians who met us start to travel all over their country and surrounding ones for free. They could follow their wanderlust even if they didn't have much money.)

You can deny it as much as you wish to justify freeloading by wealthy Westerners like yourself at the expense of much poorer locals, but the fact is that in most "Third World" countries payment is both offered and expected for rides in general. That is exactly why drivers stop more readily than in the "West". Exceptions may be made for foreigners, and people may often be too shy to outrightly ask for what should be offered automatically, but setting out straight away with the intention of not paying is simply abusing the local "system".
When it happens too often, locals do get enough of it - I heard numerous complaints about mostly Polish freeloaders in the Caucasus for example, where some drivers now feel it necessary to ask foreigners about payment in advance, something they do not do when stopping for locals.
And if eventually your Russian guru's advice caught on to the extent that locals in the "Third World" all tried hitching free rides, I bet those locals with vehicles would stop giving lifts, as is already the case in many Western countries.

As for boats in PNG in particular, they are either run by companies (often owned by expats) specifically for profit, or owned by local people who may find it even hard to afford fuel for them.
That is why they are scarce, and when they do run, local passengers would never think of trying to "hitch" on them for free.
That may still happen occasionally, but good lucking touring the country that way within the time-limits of a tourist visa - no wonder even the stingiest Russian couldn't manage.

"That is exactly why drivers stop more readily than in the "West".

Do they? My waiting times in the "Third World" are no shorter than in Europe, 0-5 minutes.

"I heard numerous complaints about mostly Polish freeloaders in the Caucasus for example"

Whereabouts? In Georgia, the hitchhiking phenomenon is understood by everyone (outside Svaneti, at least) and there's an indigenous Georgian hitchhiking community. Tbilisi has been chosen as the location of one of the next Academy of Free Travel bases in part because of that local activity.

For some years now I've lived in a country where locals customarily pay if they go a brief distance between the town and their village. Except for the oldest generation, people generally understand that moving large distances means that the traveller cannot pay for every individual lift. In fact, it was relatively "poor locals" here who encouraged me to hitchhike around this country and around the world. My "rich Westerner" acquaintances don't show the same interest in hitchhiking as I've found in Eastern Europe.

@crunch

Being a European myself, living in one of those Third World countries for years, I am well familiar with hiking the European way and sharing resources the Third World way alike. Because that is how we see it here in the Third World. PNG is certainly not different.

I am sure that you are well behaved enough to understand that sharing is expected to be mutual. It might not be called payment and it does not really necessarily need to be equal in value. But it is certainly compulsory. And this refers to hiking as well as staying with locals on their invitation. You know all that very well, as it is not different in any European country when being a guest. You get invited, you bring a gift. Someone shouts you a drink, you shout one back. You share a car ride with someone, you contribute to the fuel. At least you offer it - and you mean it too. Are you not used to do it like that? Wherever you come from?

So when a Third World local shares his house, boat or anything else with you, what do you share in return? Do you at least provide some food for him or pay at the gas station? Or leave some money or another gift? I really hope that you are not just one more of those European spongers traveling the Third World feeling even proud of exploiting locals. Ranting about 'How far did I get without paying anything'. Disgusting. I can understand that people steal when they are hungry. Wanderlust is not enough as justification though.

Locals understand the concept of hiking? Sure they do. When I drive long distance here I often give people a lift. And refuse the 50 cent they offer me in return. Or just take the coconut they open for me. They understand hiking - do you understand sharing?

"You know all that very well, as it is not different in any European country when being a guest. ... You share a car ride with someone, you contribute to the fuel."

Uh, no you don't. If you pre-arrange a lift through an internet rideshare service like the German community Mitfahrgelegenheit, you might contribute to the fuel, but it's not all the usual situation in Europe for someone soliciting rides alongside the road to contribute to the fuel. In fact, I think in some countries such an offer would really disturb the driver, make him think I was crazy or had some ulterior motive.

"Locals understand the concept of hiking? Sure they do. When I drive long distance here I often give people a lift. And refuse the 50 cent they offer me in return."

You're talking about something different. Do you really use "hitchhiking" to describe paid lifts? Perhaps English doesn't make a nice distinction (in Romanian paying is la ocasie, the stuff of villagers getting home from shopping in town, as opposed to autostop, the phenomenon of backpackers going long distance for free).

"do you understand sharing?"

I've seen the Free Travel community open their homes to people who gave them hospitality on the road, as well as those people's fifth cousin twice removed who has come to study abroad or whatever. People like Krotov live in relative poverty (ragged clothing, no more personal space in their home than a mat in the corner, monotonous diet etc.) because they tend to reinvest the money they make into providing hospitality. Not paying for rides does not imply that a person hoards everything he has to himself.

When I go to a comparatively wealthy country and have some problem, I know I can count on my hitchhiking peers there more than I can count on posters like you.

I might indeed have been away from E.urope too long already to know what is common there today. In 'my days' there, as a student, is was not at all uncommon to share fuel expenses to get somewhere (not commercially organized though). And I experienced it as well while traveling in N.ew Z.ealand later on. Once I had rented a car, had a full load of hitchhikers, that I picked from the roadside. We went more than 2000 km together, and yes, they contributed to the cost of fuel, those who could afford it. Voluntarily. One couldn't, so she bought some icecream for everyone instead. Things like that.

Your refer to the Free Travel community, with capital letters, as this is not a description only, but indeed something like an organisation. Based on mutual hospitality. By people who choose to live like that - they do not neccessarily have to, as the people in the Third World. All members of that community do travel themselves, enjoy hospitality from others and give it back in return to those who come to them. Wherever you go you can count on your hitchhiking peers. Great. Excellent.

But don't pretend that the boat owner on the Sepik river in PNG is a member of this community. He will never be able to enjoy its advantages (I'm sure he would like - but how?) but you expect him to give support like he would be one of you. He shares this kind of community with his extended family and village, but, of course, not with you. And I would never expect him to.Nor should you. Outside this close circle of family and village there is the rule of 'you get, you give'. That is not just payment, that is a matter of fairness and good manners.

You might not understand it, but in Third World countries it could well be like Laszlo refers to above: there are people driving off with a bit fuel only and they need the money from those they pick up on the way to refill a few liters occasionally to be able to get to their destination at all. Without that they would not have the money to get there. Everybody knows that, so they all give their pennies and so they all arrive at the end. Nice. There might not even be a bus service there so this is the only way to get somewhere anyway.

And then comes you, most likely having more money then they would ever see, and you do not want to give your share. Yes, right, you are willing to give them a ride yourself next time they come to your place. Well, that will make them happy.

OFF-TOPIC:

Whereabouts? In Georgia, the hitchhiking phenomenon is understood by everyone (outside Svaneti, at least)

As it is, I first encountered bitterness over hitchhikers not paying precisely in (southwestern) Georgia. And then heard more complaints in Armenia. Both of which have traditionally been among the most hospitable countries in the World, thus apparently sadly attracting more than their fair share of "freeloaders".
And still, I did also get a free-ride round-trip with police in Svaneti (from Mestia to Ushguli), but that only shows one should not make generalizations.

My "rich Westerner" acquaintances don't show the same interest in hitchhiking as I've found in Eastern Europe.

Thanks God.
Incidentally, I find it funny that an American should tell me (of all the contributors to this branch) about what Eastern Europeans have an interest in.
Fortunately, most of us in Eastern/Central Europe do NOT have the same attitudes as members of that freeloader "community" you seem to mingle with either.

ON-TOPIC:

wksamoa has said it all.
And in more detail and with more patience than I would have had.
What he described is EXACTLY how boat-travel works in PNG. I personally encountered local people optimistically setting out with insufficient money/fuel for a longer trip, entirely relying on contributions by passengers picked up along the way to allow them to buy more fuel and thus complete the long journey.

At least a few years ago, the Itu-o-Tana bus from Asau to Salelologa in S.avaii / S.amoa took off every morning with no money in the box and just enough fuel to go half-way to Manase. The driver collected the fare in Manase, filled in some Diesel, enough to get to Salelologa and back to Manase, with the same scene happening to get back to Asau. As bus use is reliably strong on that route and as there is no competition, this usually worked alright. Maybe a good strategy as well to make sure that people pay ;-)

wksamoa, "You might not understand it, but in Third World countries it could well be like Laszlo refers to above: there are people driving off with a bit fuel only and they need the money from those they pick up on the way to refill a few liters occasionally to be able to get to their destination at all. Without that they would not have the money to get there. Everybody knows that, so they all give their pennies and so they all arrive at the end. Nice. "

I understand it fine, as it's the same where I live. There are old men here who rely on people paying to keep driving. But if that kind of car stops, you wave it on and wait for someone to take you for free. Some patience, perhaps even a love of walking (though, in practice, it doesn't take so long to get a free lift that walking is worthwhile) is part of hitchhiking.

Laszlo, "Incidentally, I find it funny that an American should tell me (of all the contributors to this branch)..."

Where did I say I was American?

"As it is, I first encountered bitterness over hitchhikers not paying precisely in (southwestern) Georgia."

Well, too bad for them. The existence of an indigenous hitchhiking community means that the phenomenon is not something that can be blamed on foreigners. And your drivers must have been pretty out of the loop. When I've hitchhiked in Georgia, my drivers ask me about my travels in other countries and they note straightaway that it's nice to see the world for free.

"Fortunately, most of us in Eastern/Central Europe do NOT have the same attitudes as members of that freeloader "community" you seem to mingle with either."

Sorry, but the idea of going somewhere for free by sticking out your thumb (or equivalent local gesture) is pretty mainstream among young people here. Maybe not so much any more in Hungary if that's where you're from, but I travel in Hungary five or six times a year es beszelek eleg jol magyarul, and everyone understands this hobby.

"There are old men here who rely on people paying to keep driving. But if that kind of car stops, you wave it on and wait for someone to take you for free. Some patience, perhaps even a love of walking (though, in practice, it doesn't take so long to get a free lift that walking is worthwhile) is part of hitchhiking."
The diifference in the Pacific is that there are no other vehicles.

"The difference in the P.acific is that there are no other vehicles."

Exactly.
And how he would know anyway if it is that kind of car ;-)? Does he expect them to show a sign or that the driver will tell him? Everybody would just assume that he knows it. And as all of us here told him already, he could not even say that he didn't. At least everybody will assume that he is well behaved enough to be a 'Roman while in R.ome' and adapt.

No, I'm afraid that he will exploit the naive and lighthearted nature of the locals, prey on their small money for fuel, and post a message here later on boasting that he did it. Getting through without sharing. Being a traitor to his own high ideals of community. As he knows that these people will never be able to benefit from the Free Travel community he should feel obliged to give back otherwise, straight away. There is nothing wrong with 'What goes around, comes around' and it works quite well as long as the community it refers to has sufficient inter-action. In this case it hasn't.

Edited by: wksamoa

Of course there are other vehicles. In every area where unknowledgeable TT posters claim there are no other vehicles than taxis dependent on payment from individual passengers, I've arrived to find that there are some vehicles with expenses already paid for which one need only wait, a few days at most.

wksamoa, you have no idea what you are talking about. The current trend in the hitchhiking world is for those of us with some money to rent flats outside Europe to serve as bases. I've paid the rent on one, and bought food for the group night after night at another. Any wanderlust-driven person, whether foreigner or local, can stay and eat for free while exploring the area. It's great to pitch in if you can, but in the projects I've participated in, there's always people who can't, and no one bats an eye. Involving local people and encouraging them to travel without paying at least to their surrounding area is the whole point. All of us are aware of the difficulties of travelling to certain western countries (it is a Russian-dominated bunch, after all), so hospitality has been expanded around the world.

The difficulty of travelling I hear more often from those outside Europe who show an interest in hitchhiking, is not visas or money, but rather their society's demand that they commit themselves to family life instead of just freely wandering. Foreign hitchhikers are not responsible for that, but they can do some small thing to change it.

As much as you want to paint yourself as a more conscientious person than those bad hitchhikers, are you, wksamoa, going to be as reliable to any traveller who knocks on your door? Care to publish your contact information and home address in multiple fora, give it to those locals who show hospitality, and tell your friends to spread it too as we do?

Though I have no experience specifically with PNG (I can still point to Anton Krotov, though, and he'll probably publish a book on the subject in the next six months), I do have Pacific experience. There like everywhere some portion of society, however small, will want to freely wander, and supporting them just as we have been supported is reciprocation enough. I don't think that people being forced into family life and local community is something we should celebrate.

Krotov at least publishes photos of the lectures on Free Travel that he regularly gives when he travels. You can check them out if you don't want to actually visit one of the lectures or bases. They draw a decent crowd of young people pretty much everywhere, some of whom go on to join us.

"And when we mention drivers starting for a journey depending on contribution from people they pick up on the way, we are not at all talking about taxis."

It's normal to use the term "taxi" for any driver who takes passengers as a financial necessity.

Anyway, my point still stands. You like to talk about being conscientious, but you're not going to be there when other travellers need you, unlike hitchhikers.

I might indeed not be familiar with Eastern E.urope and the Eastern/Western hitchhiker scene. But that is not the point at all. This discussion is about P.NG and very obviously you do not have a clue about P.NG. Or the South P.acific region.

What might well work where you are, does not work here. Why? Because individual wanderlust is certainly not in high priority in our societies here. Indeed the demand here is that people commit themselves to family life and local community. If you personally can afford to support freely wandering people somewhere, great, I commend you for that. But do not expect the PNG boat owner to be able or even want to do likewise. And when we mention drivers starting for a journey depending on contribution from people they pick up on the way, we are not at all talking about taxis. But I'm afraid that you simply cannot imagine the way people live in the Pacific. Or even want to.

Where did I say I was American?

For example here:

"I'm an American student who divides his time between Finland and Romania."

http://www.lonelyplanet.com/thorntree/thread.jspa?threadID=1705183&messageID=15079109#15079109

But you've done it more than once - I've taken note of your (otherwise often interesting) posts on both TT and Amazon for years.

OK, enough of your lies.
How to expect truthful/honest discussion about anything with a Yank who will even deny something as basic and factual as his nationality???

WS, OG, don't waste more of your time on him.

Laszlo, where did I deny being American?

Laszlo, the point is that I didn't deny it. I asked where in this discussion you thought that I was American, but now we see that in fact you got it from elsewhere. I don't care at all if you want to dig up old threads.

LOL - HOW I knew that you'd even deny denying it! :-)
I bet you must be cursing TT's policy of never letting old threads expire these days.

("game over" as far as I am concerned)

I like Krotov and his group. What they do works very well in Russia, Ukraine and the Baltics where most people who give you a lift or invite you to stay at their house will actually be quite offended if you offer money. Using the same method of hitch hiking on river boats in PNG is unfair and irresponsible though.

"I like Krotov and his group. What they do works very well in Russia, Ukraine and the Baltics"

But Krotov's group is focused on travel outside those regions. The majority of AVP expeditions are to Asia or Africa.

"Using the same method of hitch hiking on river boats in PNG is unfair and irresponsible though."

Krotov wasn't trying to do that anyway. Only the OP asked about it. And then a curmudgeonly TT poster came in and condemned all forms of hitchhiking, not just boats.

Anyway, I don't care how many people try to make a case against hitchhiking. I'll continue to hitchhike wherever I go and encourage other travellers to do the same. Maybe Laszlo, sitting at home, should keep his nose out of consensual arrangements between driver and fellow standing alongside the road.

And someone who prefers pretending to be from the very region I am from should keep his nose out of discussions of countries he clearly has never been to and knows nothing about.
Mr-Yank-In-Disguise had better head back to wherever people still listen to him - he fails to notice that on this branch not one those who has actually been to Melanesia appreciates his "pearls of wisdom".
LOL

"And someone who prefers pretending to be from the very region I am"

I am in fact posting from Romania, where I have lived now for the better part of a decade (before that I was in Ukraine for a time). And I think it's obvious from my name -- for I use my full name openly as my username -- that I was not born here. I'm duping no one.

"He fails to notice that on this branch not one those who has actually been to Melanesia appreciates his 'pearls of wisdom'."

I don't post on TT for your benefit. I post here to encourage people to hitchhike wherever they go. The OP, for example, has now seen Krotov's blog and, even if the boat situation is unideal, he'll find plenty there to make travelling for free more easy in many other places.

Just a warning to people who think it is safe to hitchhike anywhere.

ChristopherCulver-

"But Krotov's group is focused on travel outside those regions. The majority of AVP expeditions are to Asia or Africa." - That was my point exactly. Having lived in Russia for the best part of 5 years I see that that sort of hitch hiking is VERY well suited to Russia. But having also traveled a fair bit in Melanesia, I feel that it would be a mistake to apply the hitch hiking ideals of someone who grew up in the USSR to such a vastly different place.

Don't get me wrong, I like what they do and their free houses for travelers and all that. I've even hitch hiked with one of them in Kamchatka. I just feel that PNG may not be the best place for it.

Ozziegiraffe, your post is completely daft. The risk of a hitchhiker being harmed in a car accident is vastly greater than being murdered by a driver, in spite of sensationalistic media coverage of murderers. And getting into a stranger's car is the way to travel in so much of the world, with the only disagreement here being about whether the driver must be paid or not.

EddyV, my point was that I don't understand how you can say "I like Krotov and his group" when essentially the entire purpose of the Academy of Free Travel is to spread hitchhiking beyond Russia.

Wow !!! The guy (assumption) simply asks if it can be done and if anyone wants to join him and suddenly we get 31 responses that pretty quickly fall into an abyss of personal chest beating and finger pointing. Impressively sad.

OP - Yes it can be done. I just hope time is on your side. I did the reverse of your trip from Moresby to Singapore without a plane about 5 years ago. Getting through PNG took me 2.5 months. Once into Indonesia it only took 4 weeks to get to Singapore. Good luck with the border crossing from Jayapura to PNG. Make sure you have all the necessary documentation well in advance. I know plenty who have had to make a trip back to Jakarta to get the ''right stamp''.

#31, you are welcome to your own opinion. An acquaintance of mne disappeared while hitchhiking in a very popular place for hitchhikers in Australia (due to lack of public transport) and her murder has never been solved.
Personally, I wouldn't risk it.
And as for Melanesia, I always drove with a full vehicle in Melanesia, and the same happens now, but they are locals who can't afford to pay. Any white person who wanted a lift would have to pay his/her share of the costs, as they are probably as able to pay as I am.

#32 - it's been agreed that it can be done without flying. People here are just saying you shouldnt try to do it without PAYING for local transport.

Ozziegiraffe - If someone is even considering hitch hiking across PNG they're obviously pretty seriously into hitch hiking, not just a beginner, so there's little point in warning them against their own travel plans. Personally I think the risks of hitchhiking are absolutely minimal and, as pointed out above, if every case of someone dying while flying was given as much media hype as those dying while hitch hiking it might put things more in perspective!

EddyV - You're absolutely correct.

However I feel you have got me on a technicality, as there's still 31 posts of ego driven chest beating and and unnecessary personal vilification that is only tenuously linked to the original posting

yep, that's a phenomenon of ThornTree often remarked upon in other forums. People here get very angry, and strangely enough it's those who contribute the most on each branch ostensibly to help others who are often the rudest.

Have a look at my posts on this thread - I hope I kept them reasonably civil and if not then please let me know!

You can hike over the mountains on the Kokodo trail. You will be expected to pay funds to the local tribes whose land you cross as you go. Travel agents in Lae should be able to brief you on that.

Hahahaha, funny guys.
I think this is a huge discussion.

Can we go back to the main topic?

@Laszlo: You sad you went twice without plane? Do you have more information? ( Your way, money, whats how much? AND!: How long did it take.

@ the money discussion: There is somewhere a topic in the forum for this. please go on with it there. In the end everyone hast to do his own decision about how he want to travel. If you are egoist. You gonna travel like a egoist. If you have the cash: please spent the cash. This is neverending......

Edit:
#34 I love you. I hitchhiked from Switzerland to Papua. And still I have a lot of respect of this journey...

@ Hitchhikingdiscussion: Its easy: Theres somthing going from A to B. If the car is going ANYWAY and theres a free seat: I take it for free if possible. Even in poor countries exist not only money. Theres something like sympatie, to make new friends or experience.... Money often don't disturb the relationship to locals, it distroyes it... If you begin to pay, consider yourself no more as guest but as withe Dollar-man. Sometimes gifts: ok. I'm not Smoker and I bought hundrets of zigaretts for the truckdrivers... (p.s. hehehe: here I have: MY FIRST LIFT ON A BOAT: http://cymytrip3.over-blog.de/article-larantukan-nach-pulau-rote-kupang-1-78215311.html )

Edited by: crunch12321

#37 I have really bad experience about guided tours and entrance fee. The Kokoda track is the most famous. SO its surely the way i gonna avoid.
In the moment I print my maps about The Sepik region AND as a keyplace: the bulldog track from Wau. Downhill, one week. I hope I can do it even alone :-/

Crunch, it is obvious you are not Australian. The Kokoda Track has great national historical significnce for us, and therefore is popular with many Australians who are physically able to do it.
I understand it would not have the same significance to anyone from the rest of the world. (PNG is also Australia's closest neighbour).

I know about this stories. Thats ok.
But I'm not gonna pay that... ;-D

Edit: About the hitchhiking discussion: I have some new news on page. Tell me if you are agree or it doesn't help at all:
http://cymytrip3.over-blog.de/pages/Segler_stoppen_Sailor_hitchhiking-5398401.html

Edited by: crunch12321