You have to be joking...

There were two articles in the weekend newspapers here in Oz (and probably in many others).

Both articles have headlines along the lines: "Rioters Poll best in Tonga". Here is a link to one of them: article

You guys voted for those fool's?

Here is some explanatory article of the election result:

Interpretation of general election

Thanks, Amaile, for giving the link to a real insight of the true situation. It is more than obvious that those accusations against the pro-democracy movement leaders are fabricated. I commend the people of Tonga for their even stronger support of their true representatives. Would you have preferred some of that king's puppets being elected instead, Harry?

Agree with #2-it's well past time for a change in Tonga.

True, well past time for change, but what sort of change? and that old saw: "Beware of what you wish for, you may get it.".

Violence is not the answer, and most of the rioters (IMO) were just there for the fight.

The problem, as I see it, is that Tongans are lazy buggers. Changing the politics isn't going to change that.

To create real change in Tonga, you need to change the basic attitude of the people. Let the Tongans take more responsibility, let them do something about the Chinese instead of just moaning about it.

The leaders of the movement can say they knew nothing of the coming riot, and did not advocate it, but distancing themselves from the violence does not abrogate their responsibility in the outcomes of it. naive maybe, but ultimately responsible, yes.

Oh, and I can't wait to return to help with the change. ;-)

I somewhat agree with Harry and have some thoughts I'd like to share- (at risk of being accused of being anti-Tongan and even worse).

The problem as I see it is that people need education-which is available-but Tonga being such a tiny dead end place once a person obtains that education they generally leave for greener pastures-rarely to return.

And that leaves a pool of shiftless dull people who have little idea how or desire to build a thriving inclusive society.

The cream is gone and now even the leaders are a shiftless lot of thieves and worse-Tonga is notorious in that regard.

So as Harry intimates there's no saying the new bunch-when and if they get their hands on the levers of power-will be any more honest or altruistic-as we've seen time and time again in other countries when the old order has fallen a new bunch of malefactors starts coming out of the woodwork.

Yes, the cream has gone but I do not think that they left only because of greener pastures elsewhere. A lot of suppression and intimidation drove many of them away. I know quite a few who only wait to return as soon as those royals will be removed from their absolute power. So I am certainly not afraid to see the change happen. Tonga will get along quite fine without those parasites.

agree, but what happens when they find out the new regime isn't exactly what they wanted? Do we have another riot and call for change? When the Royals are sorted out, will the expats be next?

Have a look at Fiji for a clue or two.

Unlike most Melanesian countries Tonga is not particularly known for violence, not from the past nor from the present. No missionaries being eaten and such.

That is why in fact those riots did indeed surprise many who would never be surprised to hear about violence in Vanuatu, the Solomons or PNG. Or in Fiji. Furthermore Tonga is very much smaller and a lot more coherent.

Sure, a new government will not be able to solve all problems overnight as some people might expect. So you could never rule out any violence for the future. On the other hand, quite frankly, I am sure that without the riots the nobles and royals would have continued their ways of delaying constitutional changes again and again ... They did that for decades and even the Public Service strike did still not convince them that their time is over. So what else was to expect? Another petition to the king? To what avail?

I do not see any of the people's representatives as being responsible for the riots but the nobles and royals alone. Their arrogance, greed and stubbornness alone led to that situation.

I agree with #8 in regards to Tongans being non-violent people. However, I do not agree with the rest.

Most of our Silent majority did not vote in this election. Because there were too many un-known candidates (other than these pro-DEMOLITION activists), conservatives are not yet consolidated, and many of us did not actually care who would lead the country, because oil price hike cannot be solved by Tongan leaders. These guilty PRs are just so good at manupilating ignorant voters, misleading and mis-interpreting what's happening in Tonga.

I have seen nor experience no suppression, oppression, intimidation by Royals nor by nobles.

There have been enough reforms introduced in the past few years, and many of us are struggling to catch up with these positive changes.

The change that these self-centred pro-DEMOLITION activists are promoting is basically to increase the number of people's representatives. Silent majority feels more confortable to have responsible nobles representing our district.

Sources of the most of overseas English media coverage have been fed by pro-DEMOLITION activists, and they do not reflect the opinion of silent majority.

I don't know the Royals or the nobles, I have played golf and drunk beer with most of the ministers and the churchmen.

But I do know the King. watched him do magic tricks. This short experience has given me a different view to that of wksamoa, and more alike that of amaile.

However, if anybody thinks that voting for violent thugs will help Tonga along, then they are in for a shock.

Educate the population, motivate them to work, (how about a Tonga First! campaign), and then real change will occur.

I mean, England, Denmark, and other states get along perfectly well with a a monarchy.

You live in Australia, Harry, and the British Monarch is your sovereign too. If you choose to want that abolished you can just say that, like you can do that in Denmark or in England. Even the new Australian Prime Minister would support you, as far as I heard.

One of my Tongan friends, living in exile in New Zealand now, did just that in Tonga, not too long ago. He got arrested, heavily beaten up by the police and charged with High Treason and Sedition. The charges were later dropped, but he lost his job at the Public Service and left Tonga a bit later. There are tens of thousands of people like him. Waiting for the day to go back. Those are the ones I am hoping for, not those elected just now.

Of course neither you, Harry, nor the Australian Prime Minister would ever use violence and start rioting. And you would not have to, of course. As there is freedom of expression in your country, a free press and all that. You could even get a job at the Public Service despite being an outspoken Anti-Monarchist.

Not in Tonga though. But exactly that is my point. There is a very true say: "Justice delayed is justice denied". And that goes for civil rights and freedom too. Rights delayed are rights denied. THAT causes unrest and violence, as you can see in Myanmar, Tibet, Kenya and Zimbabwe, just to name the most recent examples. And you could see that in Tonga.

If the Tongan king would restrain his power to what the English or the Danish monarch have as their power, it would already be a huge step forward and there would only be demonstrations of joy if he did so. Quite frankly - I do not see that yet but he could do it any day ... So who or what stops him? He would earn real respect with that, wouldn't he?

Oh, and I met one of the nobles on a flight to LAX. Just to remind you: Tonga has a total area of around 750 sqkm and about 30 noble families. That makes 25 sqkm (5x5 km) per noble (9 square miles) in average ... I did not find that very impressive, so to speak. And instead of showing some noble attitude and behavior, he was unbearably arrogant and pompous. Showed off like being Pharaoh. I would certainly not regard him as an able leader and I doubt very much that any of the commoner's representatives could be worse.

No, Harry, we are not talking about Britain or Denmark. Certainly not. Authority has to derive of legitimate sources and respect has to be earned. 'Noble birth' cannot replace that.

It seems we both have the same experience. Neither of us are Tongan, and we both know one person. One.

Yet a person who lives in Tonga and knows the business community and the Royals and Nobles has a different viewpoint.

why is that?

That one person who lives in Tonga is not a valid reference either - who knows what relations she/he has to the nobles and royals? And, of course, I do know a lot more Tongans than just one (and you too).

We will see what comes out when there will be free elections in Tonga one day. One person, one vote. No classes. And when the Tongan people chooses to elect a noble to be their Prime Minister then, so be it. Why not? Bulgaria elected their former king to become PM from 2001 to 2005. Fair enough. As long as they have a real choice.

Bulgaria?

Jesus. A nation that systematically abuses women?

No thanks!

all I am saying is that I seem to have a different perception of what is going on, and I am curious as to why you are so vehemently anti-Tongan.

OK, I spent most of my time working (Dateline) or around town or at the Club, and I have just didn't see any of this.

And I am definitely saying that gaol is the only place for the rioters, not the Parliament.
The message currently is, OK, lets riot again. it worked last time.
What a load of poppycock.

Fine, if change is necessary, then create that change, but be sure of the message being sent.

I will remind you of Fiji again. 3 coups, and the place is still a hole. Did the violence work there? NO. and it won't work in Tonga.

"I am curious as to why you are so vehemently anti-Tongan."

Manifestly unfair and completely untrue-are you sure you're reading the same posts I am?

"I am....saying that gaol is the only place for the rioters, not the Parliament"

The people elected haven't been convicted of anything-was Clive Edwards breaking windows that night?The cases against those people are weak-are you aware that many charges have already been thrown out because of lack of evidence?

The systemic abuse of Tongan resources-whether they be human political or financial-is something the nobles are notorious for-maybe you never noticed ensconced as you were in your 4th floor suite but ordinary Tongans see it all the time.

so he's pro Tonga but anti Royals/Nobles. fine.

What we have here is one bloke in Turkmenistan, one bloke in Samoa, and one bloke in Australia.

The one person in TONGA is saying pretty much the opposite of what you two are. I am only trying to figure it out.

ensconced as you were in your 4th floor suite

second floor, actually. ;-)

all bar 1 paragraph of #11 makes 110% sense.

try and see it from another view. I ask questions to try and figure something out here, and two non Tongans say the opposite of one Tongan.

Boys, give some evidence. Tell me of your actual experiences, not just "is widely known" or "are notorious".

I'm not knocking your opinion, but at least give me the right to one based on my own experience.

possibly why I am oblivious to what you see, is that I am still coming to terms with the knife attack.

"two non Tongans say the opposite of one Tongan.'
The Tongan who posted here is obviously scared stiff of change, that's common when change manifests itself in violence and communities are rendered apart never to be the same.
Non Tongans have less to lose and a wealth of experience from history to predict the behaviour of suppressive regimes under siege.

"Tell me of your actual experiences"
The difficulty is that a person can't name names at all, someone somewhere would be running to authorities with stories about resort owners on a certain island posting anti Tongan material on the net-this is what happens in authoritarian regimes-which is what Tonga is.

Are we all talking about the same country, where many people here are busy getting their kids, nephews, nieces and grand-children ready for Faka Me (a sort of children's day at church). Kids get new clothes for this event. I will be doing shopping tomorrow to bake cakes on Sunday for these kids.

We have been praying hard to forgive those who instigated and implemented such violence on 16/11/06. We have been trying to rebuild our beloved Nuku'alofa. We have been trying to shed the sense of "hatred" these rioters and the ring-leaders introduced to us.

I admit that I am scared of dogs and centipedes, but not Royals and nobles. I am more scared of many of the elected People's Representatives. Oh, and also a bit scared of deportees from U.S., NZ, and Australia, who had been negatively influenced in these countries.

Please do not try to re-introduce the sense of "hatred" into our beloved country and to the respectful peace-loving people.

so wksamoa, and hardnose. I'm afraid that I can't accept what you say. #19 lives there, you two don't.

and I am getting the impression that you are advocating and supporting the violence in Tonga.

Why are you some vehement about that? Innocent people had their businesses burnt to the ground because they were next door to a targeted business, but the riot leaders think this is ok.

I repeat: The leaders of the movement can say they knew nothing of the+ +coming riot, and did not advocate it, but distancing themselves from the+ +violence does not abrogate their responsibility in the outcomes of it.

In my short time in Tonga, I saw nothing of what you are describing. I saw a peaceful pleasant happy people, who told me that they loved the King (Current King's dad).

Did either of you actually SEE what you are describing, or were you just "told" by someone?

Come up with a decent argument, and I'll change my mind, but up until then I'm going with the advice of #19.

I am talking about the country that has a Parliament of 33 members. Just 29 nobles appoint 9 of the MPs, about 65,000 'common' people elect another 9 MPs and King George Tupou V appoints 15 more, including all of the ministers.

Do I understand you right? You say that there is a majority in Tonga that wants this to go on ?

I remember about 10,000 people marching peacefully in Nuku'alofa some time ago, supporting the Public Service strike and demanding political reforms. 10,000 people is around one third of the adult population of Tongatapu being out on the streets for their cause.

I am very much against any riots but it is the royals/nobles turn to prevent further ones. Only them have the means to do it as only them have the majority in Parliament. The least thing they could do is to accept a referendum to find out where the majority really is ...

We all agree for change. It's a matter of what kind of changes.

We think that Tonga should have its own form of democracy that is suitable to the size, mentality, history, worldview, economy, culture, geology of our nation, and do it in a speed that is suitable to most of us. We must discuss deeply and seriously about what kind of changes. It will take time to find the best way. Most of the competent members of the original pro-democracy movement group are already in the government to bring about positive changes. Some of these positive changes are not easy for us to follow. But that's a sort of growth pain, eh? We have to go through these hardship for the sake of our future.

Most of our competent government Ministers are "commoners". Our PM was one of the pro-democracy group, and was elected by "commoners" to become People's Representatives. He was appointed by the King to become the Minister of Labour and Commerce, and then to be the PM.

About the Public Servant strike, it started out purely for their pay raise. But pro-Demolition members and anti-Chinese and anti-Indian small businesses decided to abuse the strike movement for their own sake and made the final push. Because of the presence of decent people, the march was peaceful. Now because of the irresponsible final push and the destruction of Nuku'alofa on 15/11 by pro-Demolition and anti-Chinese/Indian radicals and many un-employables, we have to borrow money from China.

Referendum? on what? Until we are sure what kind of changes are to be implemented, we cannot have a referendum.

Please do not rush us to make changes. We would like to do it in a Tongan time. We do not need any more irresponsible push.

"In my short time in Tonga, I saw nothing of what you are describing. I saw a peaceful pleasant happy people, who told me that they loved the King (Current King's dad)."
I met a number of people who criticised the King and his flunkies in the harshest terms possible-words I would never post here.

"Did either of you actually SEE what you are describing, or were you just "told" by someone?"
As I said my friends are in business and have suffered from abuse but would lose even more if they made their stories public here.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

"Please do not rush us to make changes. We would like to do it in a Tongan time. We do not need any more irresponsible push. "
When the roof caves in everything gets drenched, prepare yourself for more change.

oh, rubbish.

read #22 again. both of you.

Oh well I really dont think that our business here in tonga is any of your business...

#22 has declared herself to be against democratic reform-preferring instead some muddy nebulous middle way note her plea that some mythical silent majority was somehow disenfranchised-which in the larger scale of things is itself rubbish.

It is not our business. That is indeed true. And it includes the riots. They are Tongan made too. Completely. So why should the world bother to help rebuild?

And - do not you Tongans talk about other countries like USA, China, New Zealand too and have an opinion about what happens there? And maybe some thoughts (or even hopes) what should happen there? Obama or Clinton - you do not have an opinion about that? I'm sure you have. Even though you will most probably not vote and its not really you business as well.

Nothing different here.

I met a number of people who criticised the King and his flunkies in the+ +harshest terms possible-words I would never post here.

a number? makes you an expert. I met hundreds. The (now) King, the ministers, the PM, their staff, the business owners of Nuku'alofa and Va'vau, the priests. the ordinary citizens, Tongans, Chinese, Kiwi's and Aussies.

As I said, if I am permitted an opinion, I did not hear from any of these people the stuff of what you say.

I will repeat for the benefit of both Hardnose and WK,... I am not denying you your opinions, and I am listening, but my evidence is the opposite of what you are putting here, I repeat, I will listen to the person who LIVES there and WORKS there and is a part of that community.

As I said my friends are in business and have suffered from abuse but+ +would lose even more if they made their stories public here.

I met them and played golf with them, see above.

Mana_meilangi, they are entitled to a opinion, even if we think it is off kilter.

#22 has declared herself to be against democratic reform-preferring instead+ +some muddy nebulous middle way note her plea that some mythical silent+ +majority was somehow disenfranchised-which in the larger scale of things is+ +itself rubbish.

I will quote your self. This is manifestly unfair .

It's also wrong. and childish. She lives there, you don't.

So? Yes, she lives there and she will be one of those who decide it at the end. Fair enough.

Here we just talk about opinions. We stated ours, she clearly stated hers. Other people in Tonga have another opinion (if they do post it here or not) - or do you really want to suggest, Harry, that her one voice represents all Tongans? If I would want to know about Australian politics - should it satisfy me just to know your opinion alone?

It is a matter of fact that nobody knows what a silent majority really thinks. In most cases a silent majority is simply undecided yet. So no side could claim their support.

I would certainly not say that most Tongans would share my views (or even suggest that they should). Because as far as I my impression goes, a clear majority in Tonga would want to keep the king and the nobles. I would never want that but that is certainly not my thing and not of my business indeed. Nevertheless I am allowed to say it, at least here.

It is a bit different regarding people's representation. Tonga became member of the UN in 1999 and that implies acceptance of the basic principles of democratic government. Even though there still are quite a few more member states which do not really live up to that expectation, it is certainly allowed to criticize that violation of people's rights.

So if they like it or not there is pressure to come to a more democratic system, something that is openly supported by a clear mandate of the people of Tonga. Never in history Tongan people had the chance to say what they want ... So whatever they decide it will have to be supported through a plebiscite to be valid.

Besides that it should completely be in the royal/noble interest as well to get that legitimization. But I understand that, from a king's or noble's point of view, it might be a real difference if he is king/noble because the people want him to be or because he just is, by some kind of birthright or God's will. It would mean that they are humble enough to accept the people to be sovereign over them and not the other way around anymore.

That is why I say that the royals/nobles are the ones in charge of that process. It mainly concerns their own privileges .

It's not just one voice, wksamoa, it's hundreds.

If I'm hearing wrong, I'm hearing wrong, but I'll listen to one on the ground not us 3 expats. Please read my second paragraph at #28.

Es ist nicht gerade eine Stimme, wksamoa, es ist Hunderte. Wenn ich falsch höre, höre ich falsch, aber ich höre bis ein aus den Grund nicht wir 3 expats. Lesen Sie bitte meinen zweiten Punkt an # 28.

Of course there are hundreds, even thousands. On either side tough. It is certainly not clear and obvious what the Tongan people want. So it is time to ask them, all of them, equally.

I do not know why this is so difficult to get across. I am not advocating a certain kind of outcome, even though I would have preferences of course. But that is not important.

What I am advocating is the right of the people, all of them, to decide upon their future. The people, all of them, not just 30 of them only (king+nobles). And, of course, certainly not any expats like us. That's it - nothing else.

so then, from my OP, you agree that the voters in Tonga are silly for putting those buffoons in?

ooh, that reply worked. I was black listed for a while there.